God Threshold

Allow me to be a hypocrite.

Not long ago I wrote about how everyone is trying to turn back the clock on science. So many religious fundamentalists and leftist activists are trying to deny the basic principles of sciences when they disagree with the conclusion.

In the past year, noted physicists including Stephen Hawking have made the conclusion that the idea of God’s place in creating the universe isn’t “necessary.” Interesting. They are basing their conclusions on the notion that every time they derive equations and close some gap regarding an unknown aspect of the universe and its creation, they find a reasonable explanation sans supernatural. So while there are still some mysteries about the spawning of the universe, they feel that whatever they discover, it will be based on something reasonable and not founded in divine mysticism.

I’m a Prime Mover man myself. While there are so many elements in life easily explained by evidence, such as atomic structures, evolution, DNA, etc., there still is no explanation or proof about what set this giant mechanism known as the universe into motion. Something had to do it. Even if physicists uncover what did spawn the universe, they can’t explain why it was created. Science is not concerned with the why, only the how. This is fine. It’s what science does— to provide explanations to the phenomena around us.

The theory of God’s necessity works the opposite for me. Every time they uncover something, whether it’s about atoms or the universe, they find yet another, unexplainable facet of their structure which needs investigation. It never seems to end. They have faith in that they will continue to find things deeper and deeper.

But at some point, there has to be an impetus, or a threshold from what we can perceive and understand to an area completely beyond our ability to experience. By ability to experience I do not mean something we can’t experience yet. I mean something that’s impossible to see, hear, taste, smell or touch.

I think there’s a gulf that we can never cross because there’s no ship to sail over it.

Maybe that’s where God is. Or isn’t.

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78 responses to “God Threshold

  1. I’ve heard this same logic before. God is something we cannot see, hear (out loud) or touch and because we cannot identify God so readily with our senses we assume he must not exist. But just because our minds are incapable of comprehending something doesn’t mean it does not exist….I think this is where faith comes in.

    Interesting post. Congrats on being FP!

  2. why does there have to be an impetus? this was an interesting read; I just don’t fully understand.

    • In simple terms.

      Science goes back to several points in time where something ‘else’ is needed to make equations work.

      Life from lifeless rocks is one point in time.

      The other point in time was the first creation. Often called the “Big Bang.”

      For the “Big Bang” to work, something is needed to “light the candle.”

      • Pray tell, what is your level of formal scientific education?

      • I am a former journalist with a degree in journalism and a minor in philosophy.

        I am not quibbling with anyone about scientific theories or conclusions based on such. I am merely discussing the nature, or possible nature, of things beyond the reach of science.

      • “I am merely discussing the nature, or possible nature, of things beyond the reach of science” Such as? I ask because I am interested, not because I want a quarrel.

      • See this is the issue: I am not sure what things are beyond the reach of science.

        I’m not advocating the existence or non-existence of any particular God. I just feel that we can never say “because we don’t have evidence, it clearly doesn’t exist.” Which is something some scientists do. It’s very shortsighted and honestly, unscientific.

        “Believe me” I am a backer of science. I enjoy the fact I can be vaccinated against polio and that I am assured the milk in my container is safe to drink.

        Sometimes though, scientists don’t have all the answers and it seems hard for some of them to admit that.

      • Honestly, I don’t think there is anything beyond the reach of Science or learned men. I agree that there are plenty of things we do not yet understand, but when you consider the advances made in just the last 50 years or so you begin to see our advancement is without pause. Could Dr Martin Cooper have imagined the raw computing power of today’s mobile phones back in 1973? Could the ancient Egyptian scientist have imagined the advances made in Neuroscience when performing trephination on their subjects? And yet, as a species we are so young by comparison to the physical world around us. No, I believe in time man’s understanding will continue to advance and a need for an all powerful being will go the same way as our belief in the ancient mythological gods of ancient Greece.

        Our biggest problem is religious warfare, greed, jealousy and unfounded hatreds.

      • ” I believe in time man’s understanding will continue to advance …”

        See? Belief, which implies faith.

        But science is not about faith or belief, only observance of the empirical. I don’t mind scientists saying there is no evidence of God. I mind that they say there will be no evidence of God.

  3. I think that, by and large, we have merely forgotten how to experience God. If you would like to know a little bit of what it feels like to experience this, I would suggest listening to the music of Saul Williams, or Gil Scott Heron’s latest album. I also wrote a short story (The Wandering Minstrel, it’s on my blog) that explains the physical sensation that occurs during a moment with the divine.

    You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic you’re looking for . . .

  4. Intellectual post.But l don’t agree with science .Science can not create anything with nothing it must have a source to create some thing .Only God can create every thing from nothingness.Jalal

  5. “I think there’s a gulf that we can never cross because there’s no ship to sail over it.

    Maybe that’s where God is. Or isn’t.”

    There are ships to sail over and there is God.. Science is doing well but I don’t think it can ever comprehend the Reality of God or the place where He is or not..

    Well congrats for FP :)

  6. Religion and science are not opposed:

    Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? (Quran, 78:6-7)

    Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground (see figure 9) and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground.

    Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke… (Quran, 41:11)

    Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran:

    Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?… (Quran, 21:30)

    and many more things you can read in detail here
    http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htm

    Also because of religion many scientific breakthroughs were made, such as the need to know the direction of the qibla night and day, cloudy or sunny, at sea or land, in order to pray etc.

    • Here’s a mind bender for you then; The Bible says it is the word of God, inspired and written as such.

      The Qur’an also says it is the word of God, does that mean the Qur’an is true and the Bible is false?

      Or is the Bible true and the Qur’an false?

      • Dr

        The Bible is the one which is true simply because Jesus Christ confirmed it.

        It depends whether you believe him or not. It’s all about belief.

        Andrew

  7. I’m of the same opinion myself. No matter how many scientific facts come out a week or how many mysteries are solved, there’s always something more that we’ll never figure out or quanitfy. Which is why some of us can’t help but feel a little smug when Stephen Hawking can’t understand some aspect of the motion of galaxies or whatever; we just chalk it up to whatever deity we follow.

  8. From what I’ve heard/read, Stephen Hawking has no issue with “God” in the broader sense; in that instance (or, rather, when he refers to God, generally), he was referring to God as is professed by the theistic religions, as in, the puppeteer sitting somewhere on cloud 19, stroking his beard, concerning himself with the human life form and getting kicks out of proliferating deadly diseases throughout our earthly planet. Again, as far as I understand it, he’s no issue with the idea of a Cosmic God, in the Einsteinian/Spinozaian/Jungian sense, and seems pretty content accepting that human’s have their limits.

    Albeit from a different perspective and in varying degree, like you said, science is also a faith based system. I struggle to fathom how people can’t see this. I mean, I take it on face value that there exists an electro magnetic field in our tangible sphere; isn’t that based on faith? What is an electro magnetic field anyway? Just because I’m able to do my own research and test these hypotheses, there’s still large slices of knowledge that I just accept because someone reputable baked them. Aside from from the added extra that allows me to conduct these tests for myself, really, what’s the difference? (I know you didn’t directly refer to this aspect of ‘faith,’ but I thought it fit)

    Nice post, mate.

  9. Interesting… So much will never be explained.

    I do have a question… If we are searching for ‘why’…

    Why would/should there be a God? To what end?

    If people are searching for purpose and meaning in a God I believe they will leave empty handed.

  10. I agree with the first comment. Great Post.

    Michelle
    See our history plantation
    http://www.virginiaplantation.wordpress.com

  11. Well put.

    The atheist definition of God is often so narrow that it’s easy for science to dismiss it. It seems obvious to me that there must be a first cause. For example, if as some claim, the universe came into existence simply because it could, then before it existed there existed the ability to self create….

  12. When atheists talk about God, or rather when they launch into criticism of the God they don’t believe in, the character of that God is one I rarely recognise. If the only God who exists is the one atheists rally against, then I wouldn’t believe in him either.

    I’m very happy to debate with atheists, I just find it ironic when they use similar arguments to those they criticise in Christian arguments. Or the same underlying principles at least.

    I agree with your article, there has to be a Prime Mover. Science will never be able to grasp that because He is beyond human comprehension. Its not that there isn’t evidence, its that many will never accept the evidence that would lead them to God. Its the height of tragic irony that science studies the works of God’s hands without recognising God’s signature on His creation.

    I also agree with Miss Direkshun, science and religion need not be opposed.

    Congrats on FP :-)

  13. Very thought-provoking. As an individual who believes science can explain pretty much anything, I find it difficult to accept “faith.” Thanks for sharing.

    • you just said you “believe” in science, how can you find it hard to accept faith? lol

      • Ms Direkshun,
        You have quoted quite number of Quran’s verses and rightly noted from Islamic perspective. Am Muslim too but I found it rather annoying reading your responses on other’s comments when you ended yours with this “LOL”. Don’t belittle comments from other people if you are trying to make your point from muslim’s eyes. You may tarnish Islam in that process. May Allah gives us light and guidance. InsyaAllah

      • Because we can prove science. We can prove laws of physics, gravity, history of the earth through fossil testing, etc. We can’t prove God or faith. “Faith” is often the excuse Christians use when they can’t answer a difficult question. My brain thinks rationally and logically so faith doesn’t fit in. “Faith” can’t answer why science has proven through DNA analysis that humans are so much older than 2,000 years as the bible leads us to believe.

      • The same way someone can look at the scientific evidence and say the earth is only 1000 years old or whatever, and decide to ignore it, people can look at the evidences for a God and decide to ignore it as it doesn’t fit in with their preconceived ideas or belief systems.

        What is the force that spurned the universe in to action?

        I see proof of God everywhere, science is proof of God to me, because you chose to ignore it, that is your belief!

        Because one faith has a part of it which is wrong, doesn’t mean all do or all faiths or concepts of God are wrong, that would be like saying every time a scientific theory is disproved, all of science is wrong…

  14. There is a book called “A Reasonable Faith” that I would challenge you to read. It discusses how science and God are integrated. Great thoughts.

  15. I am definitely someone who believes in God, and this post definitely takes a nice perspective on the two forces: Religious and Scientific. I support both. Science is crucial to know, and it does a great job of explaining how, but the why of it…well, that’s why Religion steps in. As you say. Great, great post.

  16. Congratulations on being Freshly Pressed. I find all these discussions interesting. Our brains have many limitations and we tend to believe without tested evidence (I guess life would be too difficult otherwise); yet there is so much we don’t know. I have learnt so much, I would still simply say, “I don’t know”. Do visit my blog: http://tinkerthinktank.wordpress.com

  17. Pingback: God Threshold | By the Mighty Mumford

  18. This is a write-up that may seem to correlate science and the mighty powers of GOD….Without God, science will never be there at first.. I still believe on the existence of a divine power…….with the advance knowledge we call science, we still are in awe of how these things came about..It can’t be explained by science alone….Glad to read this post.

    http://jaymoen.wordpress.com/

  19. Is there a God? Or isn’t there?

    • There is – I experience him every day – his name is Jesus Christ.

      If you want to discuss it send me a message at gladttm@hotmail.com

      Andrew

      • Hey Andrew.

        You state that JC is God.

        May I politely ask you who he was talking to at Matthew 26:36 just before he was about to be betrayed? What about Matthew 26:59-68 where the Chief Priests and entire Sanhedrin were mocking him? JC admitted he was ‘The Son of God’.

        What about Matthew 27:46 “My Gog, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Who was he talking to there?

        There are many other instances where JC advises his followers about doing the work of his father etc.

        I think you are rather mistaken.

        I suggest to you and to all who believe in god to do some basic research, and at the least know your own subject (and the book you base your faith on) before righteously advising those searching for an answer.

        @segmation Try reading ‘Who Wrote the Bible’ by Richard Elliot Friedman – it’ll certainly point you in the right direction.

      • Dr Welch

        As I am new to this wordpress discussion thing I didn’t realize you had replied. Let me stress that I am not trying to be argumentative here just discussing.

        You are correct when you say that Jesus called himself the “Son of God” and that he called his father God. However, John states in John chapter 1 that the Word (referring to Jesus) was God and that all things were made through him. In John 17 Jesus prayed to his father and said to restore the glory he had with him before the world began. In John 14 Jesus said “You believe in God; believe also in me.” Romans 9:5 states that Jesus is “God over all,”.

        As far as “righteously advising,” if you’ve found the answer for yourself, it is right to tell others about it. I’m sure if Dr Welch found the answers for himself, he would be righteously advising everybody also, wouldn’t he?

        Andrew

      • So when Jesus died who ressurected him?

        If it was God, and he is God, then he didn’t die which makes his death a non event. If it was another angel then they must be more powerful than ‘God’ which means he’d best be careful and not piss the other angel off.

        Also, who was speaking when the Jew’s heard ‘This is my son the beloved’? Was it Jesus, or was it god? Was Jesus simply a ventriloquist?

        There are so many holes in the abrahamic myth.

        This is why I found the answer in Science many years ago and turned my back on all religion, particularly that of the bible. A collection of 66 mythical works, in a similar way the Norse people turned their back on their gods. They realised it was all make believe too.

  20. Science pulls me in every time. I love the studying, uncovering and discoveries that it involves. But at some point you have to look around and realize that someone created this. A Creator designed us and these amazing things we call planets and galaxies, etc. Faith isn’t something you can observe or measure but that’s why it is faith, I know that to be true through personal experience for sure! Great post. Congrats on being Freshly Pressed!

  21. I am an atheist. Given that we are such a minority, I think a large section of us tend to rally against religion and religious sorts and religious ideas in less than useful (or reasonable) ways. What gets lost in that mix though is that atheists are not necessarily anti-god, but instead we are more anti-religion.

    In this case of your post (great one, by the way, this is why I read Freshly Pressed), I 100% agree with you. I think it will always be valid to say that no matter how much we understand reality, there will be something deeper and deeper which could be god. But I don’t see how you could reasonably argue for any major religion to be true from that stand point.

  22. The ship to sail over the gulf came 2000 years ago and is still alive today. His name is Jesus Christ. But only those who are hungry and desperate for God are able to find the ship because it is hidden behind the wall of a persons self-centerdness which deceives the mind. God answers all who sincerely and earnestly ask for revelation and understanding of himself. As Jesus said – “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.”
    (Matthew 7:7-8 ESV)

  23. I really liked your post. Congratulations on being freshly pressed!
    Blessings ~ Wendy

  24. Excellent post. You have a fan. Congrats on being FP.

  25. We’re already at that threshold. Since science requires observation, they have long since taken to theorizing about the unobservable. Since you can’t observe it, though, you can never really prove it. Some interesting conclusions nonetheless, such as our reality is simply a projection of a deeper, invisible reality. Almost sounds religious, doesn’t it.

  26. Well said. Things have to be build, sewn, made or invented by someone. They don’t come forth in thin air. God is.

  27. Reblogged this on thewordpressghost and commented:
    Friends,

    Here is a simple explanation why there is a prime mover. Usually this ‘mover’ is described as God.

    Enjoy.

    Ghost.

  28. Well said. What I hate about non-believers is that they call believers as naive and ignorant of science. I have no opposition if they don’t believe but what irritates me is when they force there scientific reasons to believers and call them ignorant when they chose to still believe in a God. I believe that there must be someone who started it all. It didn’t all started in the big bang. After all, if indeed we came from and only from the Big Bang, the value of life will be in question. Why do we value life so much if we are just the product of an accident in the unraveling of the universe.

  29. Whatever you believe religion is more then just about who created the world/ universe it is about culture, community and while some beliefs may be outdated for lots of people now, there is a general sense of right and wrong. Religion is a way of making sense of the world, a comfort in hard times and way of dealing with death.

  30. Excellent post. I am intrigued by science and have a deep faith in God. When we learn more about our earth – through science, it actually confirms my faith in God. I tend to think of Him as The Creator, of course, The Biologist, The Physicist, The Chemist, and so on.

    Additionally, I feel like if we want to understand God, then we need to approach him spiritually. I like what Paul teaches: “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned,” (1 Corinthians 2:14). In my mind, a scientific proof does not equal a strike against the existence of God. Just as a testimony of God’s power doesn’t disprove scientific theories. Most likely, the two converge at a point too deep for our understanding. But we can come to understand both God and science when we approach at them appropriately.

  31. thetemenosjournal

    God is string theory? Or maybe not ;-)

  32. Why would a product of chance or evolution ever want to believe in a god? How could that be any part of the process? Just the fact that I have the ability to believe in a higher being convinces me there is one.
    Congrats on the FP.

  33. Pingback: God Threshold « knowfive

  34. This God…so unreachable, unfathomable, so distant, so complex as to only be experienced through faith…does not sound as though he or she has much interest in being near mankind. We credit him/her with everything from creation to death, yet the only evidence I see in a world full of death and destruction is that God fled this place a long time ago. I don’t need science to tell me God doesn’t exist. I have my fellow man as amble evidence of that.

    • It really doesn’t matter if you believe in God or not. What matters is that your belief, whatever it is, empowers you – to be successful, to be joyful etc.
      For example, some people who believe in God think that God will always provide (or that Jesus will save them) and, therefore, they don’t take personal responsibility for their lives but instead wait around for God/Jesus to save them. On the other hand, others become non-believers because they have the attitude of I’ll believe it (for example, God) when I see it. Instead, they should be developing the attitude of I’ll see it when I believe it. The power of the mind is something that people seriously underestimate and as a result life becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy; that is, whatever you think about or believe in tends to grow and you attract into your life the people and events that harmonize with your dominant thoughts. That’s why the world is as messed up as it is today – people have a lot of negative thoughts and a lack of love and compassion in their hearts. Contrary to religious beliefs, God has nothing to do with our current situation. It’s a free will universe and our world is simply a product of our choices. So choose wisely.

  35. Holy Scripture says, from St. John… and Jesus speaking: “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4: 24)

    Yes, always faith here must be applied, and that itself is a “gift” from God!

  36. Pingback: God Threshold « sahrishahmadgul

  37. I agree, there will always be things that mankind is unable to fathom or comprehend but that still does or doesn’t prove the existence of a God. There does not always have to be a why, sometimes there is just IS. Interesting and thought provoking post nevertheless.

  38. One of the simplest and yet most eloquent approaches to the issue I’ve ever read! I can see why you got FP’d.

  39. Congratulations on a very interesting post,

    The nature of this question has been discussed by great minds of many ages, you made points that reflect principles of the Ontological, Cosmological and Teleological explanation of God and to what extent the human mnd can comprehend tand know he un-knowable
    Not wanting to get too deep on this but noted thinkers have made the point of saying that all of man’s ideas stand on his past experience of the world, that being the case…how can man ever understand that which extends beyond his experiences i.e. the nature of God and that which escapes the faculties of sight, hearing and other human senses

    As for the role of science in these enquiries, you are perfectly right – it deals with the how? but as we know, it is the Why? that makes all the difference and no science know to man can explain Why we love red roses and beautiful faces :)

    yet we try to accept that reality as a fact despite the absence of any scientifical postulation on the matter…

    interesting post – may you continue to write such enlightening blogs FOREVER!

  40. This is a nice, cross-examining thread. Glad to see no bashing. Thank you.

  41. Pingback: God Threshold by Sublime Life « el blog de inés

  42. Wrote a poem (maybe a rhyme?) addressing this issue. I’m a baptist, therefore, you might like it.

    http://inesdelorange.wordpress.com/2012/11/03/image-6/

  43. great post. got me wee mind thinking deeper. tip of me hat to you :)

  44. Dr

    I can’t find your recent reply, so I am replying here.

    There are no holes in the Bible, it depends how you are looking at it as to whether there are holes or not. Faith fills “what looks to be” holes. If you really don’t want religion then all you will see is holes. If you are in desperate need of God then you will overlook what appears to be holes.

    I think today is the day you will have to turn your back on science because it is riddled with holes.

    You state you have found the answer in science. What? You have found everlasting life in science? Clearly science offers you no assurance in life or sound answers. Scientists can’t be sure about anything much from what I see. They can’t even explain simple things on this earth let alone the entire universe. They’re going to be waiting an awful long time before they get to the bottom of things, like trillions of years and even then they won’t succeed because the universe is spiritually understood, not naturally understood.

    I can rapidly speed up the process of understanding for people by directing them to Jesus Christ who created the whole thing.

    Question – don’t you want everlasting life?

    I have put this link here by a very young person (at school). I think you should read it, they say it better than me.
    http://ironandman.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/electrons-and-god.html

    Don’t think by what I’ve said that I am trying to be argumentative (it may seem that way, although I am disagreeing), I just want you to see that God is real.

    Andrew

  45. Pingback: God Threshold II | sublime life

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